Staff’s two cents about recruiting.
I had to chuckle a little bit when I read the post and comments on the new recruits coming into the program. When I was at BYU people would always ask me what I thought about us recruiting this guy or that guy. 99% of the time I didn’t have a clue who they were talking about. Mainly because I never followed who BYU was recruiting anyway.
The fact of the matter is, at best recruits are 50/50. Meaning 50% of the time they live up to the hype and 50% of the time you never hear about them after they sign that ever coveted LOI. I never get involved in recruiting talk because it really doesn’t matter what guys did in high school. College is a completely different level and I feel before I start hyping anyone up, they better be able to perform in their new surroundings.
Think about this for a minute. In college there are 85 guys on scholarship…85!!!! Only 22 of those guys start and probably only 40 get game time at best. Interesting how that number 40 is approximately 50% of 85. That means coaches get the recruiting right about ½ the time.
There is a reason why the draft is on TV and LOI day is not. I bet the draft ratio of Success v Bust is more like 80/20. Why? Because NFL teams can’t afford to have the sideline littered with mistakes.
Staff,
Generally agree with your sentiment; however, your assumptions may be off. You are assuming that the 40 players not on the field, will never get there. With 20-25 Freshman on scholarship, many of them don’t hit the field as Freshman and Sophomore’s, but may get there as Jr.’s and Sr’s.
You’d have to look at the numbers on a recruiting class by recruiting class basis. If you look at it that way you may still be right that 50% of a given class doesn’t pan out.
Brandon,
Good point. Without doing tons of research I can say that in my recruiting class only 3 of the 10 or 11 guys even made it to their senior year. However 1 of those that didn’t make it did get playing time his sophomore year.
I would also say that some are better than others. Maybe we combine your view and mine and say it is more like 60/40. If I get some time today I will look up some past draft classes and see what the real numbers are.
Markell,
Fair enough assessment. I have heard that the coaching staff expects about 5-10% to not show up (grades, JC transcript issues, etc.) Then you probably have another 10% who transfer or quit….pretty soon you’re looking at a low “yield” percentage. In any event, evaluating BYU’s recruiting classes is even more of a fruitless effort, due to missions, unless you take a 5-7 year perspective.
Here is what I have so far:
2000: 7/23 = 30%
1. C.J. Ah You DL Cedar Hills, UT-Transferred and started for Oklahoma
2. Matt Allen WR Phoenix,AZ-Starter
3. Judd Anderton DL Tacoma, WA-Battled shoulder injury after shoulder injury, played
4. K.C. Bills LB Littleton, CO-Left early for Medical Reasons
5. Cameron Casper OL San Diego, CA-Never enrolled
6. Lawrence Cowan LB Salt Lake-Hardly played, quit early.
7. Quinn Gooch DB Tucson, AZ-No Comment
8. Jordan Hill LB Pocatello, ID-Transferred and started for ASU
9. Kai Jones OL Richland, WA-Never played, quit the team.
10. Isaiah Joiner RB/ATH Sealy, TX-Played in the 2000 season and after the season quit school.
11. Junior Kato OL Daly City, CA-Red-shirted then disappeared.
12. Eddie Keele OL Othello, WA-Starter
13. Brian McDonald RB Cerritos JC-JC Transfer (more proven at the college level) Played and
battled injury. Convert RM!
14. Michael Marquardt DL San Marcos, CA-Started then transferred and started for ASU
15. Adam Nelson DB Orem-Never played.
16. Danny Phillips DB Cerritos JC-Played in 4 games Jr. Year and 3 Sr. Year
17. Brent Pollock DL Rolling Hills Estates, CA-Never played in any games at BYU.
18. Danny Southwick QB Provo-Never played at BYU.
19. Brock Stratton LB San Antonio, TX-Transferred to Texas Tech where he was 2nd Tm All-BigXII selection at LB.
20. Joel Theler DB Salt Lake-Played very little at BYU. Quit the team.
21. Paul Walkenhorst DL Highland, UT-Starter
22. Marcus Whalen RB Waldorf, MD-Dismissed after Fr. Year
23. Derrus Wilson DB Blinn JC-Played in 10 games each year at BYU.
2001: 9/16 = 56%
1. Bryant Atkinson LB Provo-Played sparingly on ST quite after Soph year
2. Joshua Brandon DB College of the Canyons-Played in 10 games ’02 and 11 in ’03.
3. Travis Bright OL Queen Creek, AZ-Starter
4. Quinn Christensen OL Dixie JC-Played in every game at BYU.
5. Victor Filipe DL Salt Lake-Never played at BYU, transferred to Oregon.
6. Aaron Francisco DB Laie, HI-Team Capt for the AZ Cardinals, enough said.
7. Dustin Gabriel RB Austin, TX-Solid Starter until serious injuries.
8. Saia Hafoka WR Kahuku, HI-Still battling knee injuries, never saw any time.
9. O’neil Howell DB West Palm Beach, FL-Not much PT. Only sparingly on ST
10. Breyon Jones WR Round Rock, TX-Kick Returner his senior year. Only ST
11. Bryce Mahuika WR Vancouver, WA-Punt Returner and Clutch on the final drive at Utah in ’06.
12. Jeff Rhea OL South Jordan-No PT
13. David Tafuna WR Mesa, AZ-Solid Player
14. Ryan Keele OL Ricks JC-Starter
15. John Denney DL Ricks JC-Starter, NFL
16. Spencer Nead TE Ricks JC-Solid TE, starter
2002: 9/24 = 38%
1. James Allen DB LA Southwest JC-Played 1 year Outstanding, Dismissed for HC violations early.
2. Rey Brathwaite RB Grossmont JC-Dismissed Early
3. Chad Barney DB Dixie JC-Solid Playing career
4. Curtis Brown RB Palmdale, CA-3 yr starter BYU’s All-Time leading rusher
5. Daniel Coats WR Layton, UT-2 yr starter Solid, NFL
6. Ferron Fonoimoana WR Kahuku, HI-Never did come back from that mission.
7. Andrew George TE Englewood, CO-2 yr Starter
8. Johny Harline TE Orem-Enough said
9. Jonathan Fanene DL College of the Canyons-Transferred and started for UofU
10. Paulo Fualii LB Kearns-Never made it Academically.
11. Kellen Fowler DB Kaysville-1 yr Starter
12. Jake Kuresa DL Millville, UT-4 yr Starter
13. Nate Hutchinson DB St. George, UT-No PT, Injury bug
14. Bryan Kehl LB Salt Lake-2 yr Starter
15. Mulivai Pula RB Kahuku, HI-Never made it academically.
16. Taufui Vakapuna RB Salt Lake-4 yr Starter
17. Travonne Jackson DB Los Angeles-Never played at BYU – Homesick
18. Shaun Nua DL Eastern Arizona JC-1 yr Starter
19. William Tukuafu DL Salt Lake-Never made it academically.
20. Thomas Stancil RB Bakersfield, CA-Quit the team after 2003.
21. Ben Olson QB Thousand Oaks, CA-We all know what happened.
22. Tyson Dunham P Worland, WY-Never played at P or K. Held a couple times though
23. Aaron Singh DB Carlsbad, CA-Quit early, never played
24. Walt Williams DB Eastern Arizona JC-Never made it.
Markell:
Thank you for the post. These appear to be primarliy Crowton recruits. Did Lavell have aany better success is Bronco having better success?
2003: 6/12 = 50%
1. Matt Ah You LB Cedar Hills, UT-Solid player, 50/50 this year with Doman
2. Aaron Attig DB Logandale, NV-No PT
3. Brett Denney DE Thornton, CO-Starter
4. Ofa Mohetau OL Euless, TX-A #1 recruit coming out of high school Mohetau was highly touted. He played in 8 games in 2003 at OG. Transferred
5. David Nixon LB College Station, TX-4 yr starter
6. Mitch Payne K/P North Ogden-Avg Kicker
7. Dallas Reynolds OL Provo-4 yr starter
8. Brian Soi DL Provo-Transferred to Ut State
9. Jason Speredon OL West Valley-Has played sparingly
10. Dan Van Sweden TE West Point, UT-ST player
11. R.J. Willing OL Kahuku, HI-Starter
12. Walt Williams DB Eastern Arizona JC-Didn’t Make it again.
2004: 10/27 = 37%
1. Nick Alleto OL Parker, CO-Plays Sparingly
2. Jason Beck QB College of the Canyons-Good recruit, just behind a better player
3. Karland Bennett DB Dallas, TX-Quit school. Involved in rape case.
4. Jacob Bower QB Meridian, ID-Transferred to Tulsa
5. Terence Brown OL Summerville, SC-Starter
6. Austin Collie WR El Dorado Hills, CA – Enough Said
7. Ray Feinga OL West Valley-Starter
8. Vince Feula DL Cerritos JC-Starter
9. Isley Filiaga DL Provo-Don’t know his story, Hasn’t play yet.
10. Joe Griffin WR Grossmont JC-No PT
11. Antwaun Harris WR Garland, TX-Transferred, never played at either place
12. Gary Lovely LB Foothill JC-Solid ST
13. Greg Lovely DB Foothill JC-Sparingly, Transferred
14. Nick Longshore OL College of the Canyons-No PT
15. Justin Luettgerodt LB Foothill JC-Starter
16. B.J. Mathis ATH Dallas, TX-Quit school
17. Michael Morris WR Itawamba JC-Sparingly if at all
18. Drew Mugleston DB Mesa, AZ-Never played at BYU
19. Grant Nelson LB Hopewell, PA-So far a ST guy
20. Matt Putnam DL Brigham City, UT-Good year last season
21. Michael Reed WR Baytown, TX-Starter
22. Ibrahim Rashada DB Augusta, GA-Left School
23. Eddie Scipio DB Allan Hancock College-Academically ineligible
24. Billy Skinner DB Arlington, TX-Transferred
25. William Turner LB Daly City, CA-Quit School
26. Todd Watkins WR Grossmont JC-Starter
27. Riley Weber WR Glendale JC-Holder, No PT
2005: 11/17 = 65% THIS IS A STRONG CLASS, WE’LL SEE WHAT THEY DO THEIR SENIOR YEAR THIS YEAR
1. Sete Aulai OL Carson, CA-Starter
2. Luke Ashworth WR Provo-Solid Player
3. Chris Bolden LB Riverside CC-Solid Player
4. Stephen Covey DB Provo-Hasn’t found his position yet
5. Shawn Doman LB Woodburn, OR-Starter
6. Spencer Hafoka WR Kahuku, HI-Remains to be seen
7. Terrance Hooks LB Tempe, AZ-Solid Player
8. Brandon Howard DB Riverside, CA-Starter
9. Cade Hulbert DB Boise, ID-Never heard of him
10. Kyle Leukenga LB West Valley-No PT, Injury bug
11. Derek McLaughlin P Univ. of Washington-Starter
12. Matt Reynolds OL Provo-Starter
13. Justin Robinson DB Independence CC-Starter
14. Vic So’oto TE Carlsbad, CA-Starter
15. Russell Tialavea DL Oceanside, CA-Starter
16. Harvey Unga RB Provo-Starter
17. Peter Vailahi OL Charlotte, N.C-Never heard of him
Let me tell you the good news: There are less and less players who Don’t ever make it to campus. At least the coaches are recruiting better people these days. We had some great players recruited in ‘00 and ‘01 but they couldn’t make it to school.
Staff,
Great analysis.
Staff,
I love the picture that you used for this post. I remember watching the story about that kid and laughed so hard I almost cried.
Excellent info. Thanks for the research.
Shane
Markell,
I believe Cade Hulbert was a stud running back out of Capital High School in Boise, ID. I remember sitting next to Cade Hulbert’s father at a Cougar Club meeting in Boise shortly after his son was offered a scholarship to play at BYU. He gave the opening prayer and was crying tears of joy while giving thanks for his son’s opportunity to play at BYU. It was pretty disheartening when his son quit shortly after going to Provo because he was homesick. I heard his mother went down to help him acclimate but he ended up quitting. There may have been extenuating circumstances (at least I hope so…homesick, are you kidding me?) but that’s what made the newspapers around here. Coach Mendenhall extended the offer for him to return after he finished his mission. No word on whether or not his mother was allowed to stay with him at the MTC.
loved the “no comment”
All I get is a no comment. Two blown out knees, a number of headaches, being referred to as “grandpa”, being possible the oldest member on the team, still trying to “cash” in on his BYU “success”…. his class had a 30% success rate.
WOW, everything going against me…my career has just been put into perspective.
All joking aside those are some wacky numbers, but they are improving and will continue to improve as long as Bronco is the head coach.
Goocher…
The “No Comment” was supposed to be a compliment, just like the “Enough Said.”
There are certain people who have such an impact on the program, the mere mention of their name is enough to stir emotions. You, my friend are one such player.
An interesting thing is what Coach Mendenhall has done with Walk-Ons and RMs
A few examples of uys not mentioned on the list of recruiting classes:
John Beck
Cameron Jensen
Jan Jorgensen
These guys all came to BYU after their mission (in John’s case it was the scholarship was available after his mission)
Then you have walk-ons:
Hala Poanga
John Burbidge
Nate Meikle
Joe Semanoff
Ben Criddle
Kayle Buchanan
Justin Maddux
..to name a few
I think by encouraging walk-ons and by giving everyone the same equal opportunity Coach Mendenhall creates more scholarship players than recruiting allows. This gives us a better edge in recruiting that many people forget.
Now this is great stuff. Thanks Markel and Quinn for this web site. I never could quite get my head into all the hype over some guys who have never played 1 down of college football.
I loved what Coach Mendenhall said ” we dont really care how many stars a player has when he gets here, we care about how many they have when they leave” . Case in point: You 2, Bryan Kehl, Cameron Jenson just to name a few.
Thanks for the great info. Something to think about in our football-starved February. Valentine’s Day? Pshaw!
Wow! What a great breakdown. Gotta confess that it’s a little depressing to see some talent in some of those classes that never translated to the field, but I’m optimistic that things are definitely improving. A couple of those early classes were at a real low point for the program, so the attrition rate is understandable.
The story behind that picture makes me want to laugh that he took so many people in, but I really cringe for the kid. He definitely had some issues.
I can hardly believe how big you can get if you focus on lifting. Joe Semanoff was in some group or something for bodybuilding i read somewhere. Hey, who will be the S.M.O.C. this 09 season? Thanks for Sharing!
Marcus Whalen come back and was on the team for 2 more years. He gained a 1000 yds his soph season, and then broke his foot minutes before the first game of the season during his jr. yr. He and Breyon Jones beat up some dude and were expelled, Marcus tried to get a release from BYU to finish at SUU, but was denied.
Whalen had a good career till one of the hogs stepped on him and he roughed up a loser.
Filiaga is gone. Went to Utah, left Utah, and now is rumored to be going back to Utah.
Oh and Chad Barney a solid player? Just because someone played, doesn’t make them a sold player. Barney was horrible.
Spare me the JC All American comments.
Trace,
Sorry for calling him a solid player. I’ll be honest I never saw him play. I was on my mission. I did hear he was not the best buy didn’t feel good about passing judgement on a guy I never saw with my own eyes.
If he really wasn’t that good and was starting that further prooves how bare the cupboard can get.
Markell-
What year did you come into the program? didn’t see your name on the list.
Also, did John have any offers out of HS? I know he went straight on a mission but I never heard that he had lined up with BYU before his mission or after. What is his story?
Barney was a good player but to Staff’s point the cupboard was quite bare and had to play out of position. He was a Safety trying to play corner and it just didn’t work but with that being said, I don’t think there was anyone behind him that would have done a better job.
If you have followed BYU Football recruiting at all you guys probably could of wrote up Staffieri’s break down. Not earth shattering by any means.
Also, Whalen was booted after his Sophomore season for a bar fight in Spring of ‘04. Transferred to SUU and never played.
In response to Nate…
You do realize that a lot of the 2001 and 2002 classes, were offered by LaVell’s staff. Crowton honored all of those offers LaVell’s staff made.
Shouldn’t be too hard on guys like Barney and Rod Wilkerson. These are guys who were playing out of position and took one for the team simply because they were better at the position than anyone else.
In Barney’s case he was a safety who was asked to be a corner and do the best he could. Wilkerson was a LB/DB who, becasue of his speed and the complete lack on ANY speed or talent at WR, was asked to try and become a WR–a position he had NEVER played. These are a few of the guys who would have been VERY solid at their natural positions but simply took one for the team and shouldn’t be overly criticised for trying to fill in for the team’s lack of talent at other positions.
Scott,
Funny thing about John and I’s stories…they are intwertwined.
John and I both graduated HS in ‘00. After our Senior seasons we came on a recruiting trip to BYU. The same trip. It was just John, my best friend Peter Ord and myself. All of us were told that there were simply no scholarships left, but that we could have preferred walk-on status and then recieve a scholarship later.
John went to BYU summer semester in 2000. Practiced all through the summer. The coaches liked him so much that they were trying to get him to stay for the 2000 season because they were unsure about the QB situation. This is when they were trying to make Doman a safety, but he refused.
When John came back from his mission he had a lot of offers from big schools and I believe BYU was kind of weak in getting him back, but he came.
I grey shirted then red-shirted in 2001. I was told by Coach Crowton and the defensive staff that I would have a scholarship when I got back from my mission. Well, then they hired Coach Mendenhall while I was away.
My first day back at school I had my first meeting with him, not knowing what he was like. I mentioned the scholarship and he said, “I am the D Coord. I decide who on the defense is worth a scholarship. I don’t know you, nor have I seen you play. You have to play a season and play well and we will talk about it at the end of the season.
So I earned the starting job in 2004 and in 2005 I was on Scholarship.
2006: 10/16 = 63%
1. Sam Doman, QB – never played at BYU, transferred to Oregon, then Snow, then back to Oregon
2. Max Hall, QB – Starter
3. James Lark, QB – back up so far, on a mission
4. Mike Hague, RB – played a handful of plays his freshman year. Coming back from a mission, should be a good player
5. **Rhen Brown, WR – straight onto a mission
6. McKay Jacobsen, WR – Starter
7. **Mike Muehlman, TE – Never heard of him, must have went straight on a mission
8. Ryan Freeman, OL – Played a bunch as a true freshman, could be our answer at C this year
9. Braden Hansen, OL – Red-shirt, mission, should be solid
10. Walter Kahaialii, OL – Red-shirt, mission, probably starts at G when he gets home
11. Tom Sorensen, OL – hasn’t done anything yet
12. Rick Wolfley, DL – Rotates in at NT
13. **Riley Stephenson, K/P – coming back from mission
14. Moses Foketi, DL – Rotates at NT
15. Ian Dulan, DE – Starter
16. **Romney Fuga, DL – Mission
17. **Jordan Richardson, DL – Red-shirt, mission
18. Matangi Tonga, DL – Played as a freshmen, dismissed
19. **Nate Moncur, LB – Hasn’t made it to BYU yet, maybe won’t ever
20. **Brandon Ogletree, OL – Never heard of him, can’t tell you his status
21. Brandon Bradley, DB – Solid Player
22. **Robbie Buckner, DB – Red-shirt, mission
23. **Michael Moore, DB – Never heard of him, can’t tell you his status
24. Tice Pringle, DB – was forced into action against Utah in ’06 after Criddle and Buchanan went down
25. Andre Saulsberry, DB – Mostly ST, but had some good PT at Corner
** I did not include these players in my ratio because I don’t know enough about them to comment.**
broncorocks,
Not trying to write earth shattering news, just proving my theory of 50/50 through the breakdown. No it doesn’t take a genius to know who played and who didn’t.
PS Whalen was a stud RB, but if you are an idiot and can’t stay around, that is a bad recruit. Kind of like the Cowboys continuing to sign players who are always suspended.
LOI day is on TV. It seems that schools that downplay recruiting are the ones that don’t do it too well. Recruiting is the life blood of a program. I think BYU has done well for itself the past few years, and we need to embrace recruiting, not down play its importance. Sure it is hit and miss, but what I sports isn’t? USC doesn’t act like recruiting isn’t important. They understand that more times than not, the team with the most talent wins. I think Bronco, Tidwell and company completly understand the importance of recruiting, just listen to Tidwells comments on the subject. As fans, I see no problem with getting excited with agood clas, or frustrated with a bad class, as the results directly transfer to the field.
Markell,
Excellent stuff. It’s not a real surprise until you break it down like you’ve done. I remember hearing a lot of those names and getting all geeked up about them and now realize that some of them just fell off the face of the earth and most of them never even saw the field.
Why isn’t it OK to yank a kids football scholarship if he turns out to be a bust? I know it’s heartless or whatever and probably against the rules, but if half the guys on the team are never going to see the field, and they have a scholarship to play football, Bronco should just yank the scholarship and give them to some JC kid that has a better shot of helping the team, or at least adding a little depth.
I love recruiting for two reasons.
1) LOI day is in the offseason. The offseason sucks!
2) It liks the game of football itself. You get all worked up for the announcement. You win some and you lose some and generally you are facing your rival or conference foe for the kid. So it is like 22 games going on simultaneously. Its almost the exact same feeling as the games without the 4 hours of actual football. With that being said I would take a Criddle and even a Buchanon over an internet legend anyday.
6. Ferron Fonoimoana WR Kahuku, HI-Never did come back from that mission.
Wow, he’s in the seventh year of his mission now. Must have a real taskmaster for a mission pres!
one quick thing – tico pringle never did play. you must be thinking of cole miyahira who played cb against oregon in 2006
No I am not confusing tico with cole. Trust me I know the difference. One was extremely athletic with tons of potential and one was blah.
Thank you Mark, enjoyed that! What happened to the ads??
Alright Gooch, I’ll stick up for you man. One of the hardest hits in my recent BYU memory was Gooch laying the wood to one of Boston College’s receivers with the last name Challenger in the ‘06 heartbreaker. Matt Ryan tossed a long ball his way and immediately after the ball arrived, Gooch “destroyed” Challenger…according to the ESPN commentator. The hit was such a thing of beauty that I still have it on my DVR. I deleted the rest of the game except for that hit and the ensuing replays. Gooch, you da man!
Bob,
What ads are you referring to?
Anyone looking for some John Beck autographed memorabilia check out:
http://aefootball.com/autographs.html
Staff….I was 04 Boost That % Bro !!!! LOL
Markell, I like your thoughts on recruiting, I think the biggest thing Bronco has done with recruitig is that he is getting the guys that want to play and be at BYU, they already have the desire to be there. I’m sure the percentage goes up. I think the talent level is getting a little better, but I think more of them are sticking with the program. they know what they are getting into, also, 2006 Brandon Ogletree is a LB from texas and I remember alot of hype about him, on Nate Moncur he had some knee problems his senior year, and his parents moved to Georgia, he may have gone also. I would like to see him at the Y I think he was a good LB. I think that BYU’s staff is doing a great job recruiting. Many of you out there that played at this level know recruiters are not always honest or atleast up front and its easy to tell a 17 year old he might start, or play the position he was told he’d play, or anything he wants to hear. Bronco will recruit a boy, make him a man, and teach him to play football. As for the star system, well I don’t totally believe in it but its something to go by. Ive seen 3 and 4’s bust or leave, and no stars excel. Its all in the attitude, and wanting to learn, some think they,ve learned it all. when you stop learning you stop improving. anyway great job recruiting staff
Isley Filiaga is coming back from a mission a and is playing at Utah. That is whay is younter brother LB from Bingham L.T. Filiaga just dissed BYU and signed with Utah.
Rod Wilkerson at LB? I can’t believe someone just said that. Oh geez.
Ok Wags, take it to 39%
Staff,
Thanks for posting all of that. It was a great read. I would imagine that it would also have the effect of helping to bolster fan appreciation of Bronco, realizing how Bronco appears to have increased the percentage of contributing recruits.
If we’re going to win another NC soon, which I’m sure we all want to see, we really need to have a high percentage of recruits who truly contribute a lot to the program. It’s nice to see we’re on the right track.
Thanks again for your comments. This blog is a great resource. And thanks for the laugh from that photo. That story was hilarious, I can’t help but smile when I see it. Sad, but hilarious to the point of LOL.
Atwuan Harris and Griffin had some PT with BYU before they transferred. Isley Filiaga transferred to Utah, but didn’t cut it academically or psychologically. He quit football before he ever got PT at Utah.
Spencer Hafoka, I believe did get some PT last year. Cade Hulbert supposedly walked on at BSU, but I don’t know what has happened with him. Vailahi is related to Vai Sikahema and the son of a former polynesian WWF wrestler. He was from North Carolina and supposedly a hidden gem. He was getting late attention from some big schools when his coached finally sent some film out on him. He signed an LOI with BYU but asked to be released before he arrived at BYU. Some thought it was academic and others thought it was HC issues. Haven’t heard from him since
Michael Moore was supposedly a true athlete and somewhat of a hidden gem from SoCal. He was redshirted his Freshman year. I think he got married, didn’t go on a mission, and never really had a passion for football. Supposedly he stayed at BYU, but gave up football.
Gooch,
I wondered about the”No Comment” comment too. But since I know Markell (by way of his in-laws) and know of his respect for you, I realized that I simply misunderstood his comment.
Gooch, my family loved watching you play. Thank you!
Markell,
Thanks for the clarification. Hope all is well with you, the Mrs., and the little one.
The Schofields
Markell-
I read everything you’ve said but the fact remains that teams like Florida, USC, etc., who win the national championships and finish consistently in the top 10 also the top recruiting classes. I know that BYU will never get these athletes but would you rather have five 5 star, ten 4 star SA’s and then have 30% make it or zero 5 stars, two or three 4 stars and have 30% of them make it? Also, if you can’t get the 5 star LDS SA’s then as the Apollo astronauts said to mission control, “Houston, we have a problem” or as the prison warden in Cool Hand Luke said, “I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.”
Now, Markell, I am a convert and belive that a LDS SA can make a tremendous impact on a BCS football program and if I had a son who was a 5 star SA I would be hard pressed to talk him out of going to Florida or SC. Even Manti can find a Single adult ward at Notre Dame stay strong in the faith. Charlie Weis said of hs serving a mission: “We had that (discussion) long before he even talked about coming here,” Weis said. “I think that we would be hypocritical, being a faith-based school, to not to respect and honor somebody’s religion. So back a long time ago, we talked about the possibility of his choosing to go on a mission.”
Thhis was the ultimate payback because more converts to our church come from the Catholic Church than any other church. And, finally, can you imagine how Manti might have helped our defense had he played here? He could have been used like Bell was at UNLV and he could have covered WR’s better than Kehl. Oh well, no sense reminiscing over what might have been.
To Walt and others,
I think at some point in the comment you guys started to think I was opposed to recruiting. I am not opposed. Of course it is the most important thing to keeping a program going. You HAVE to bring in new blood and that new blood has to be the best possible.
What my real point was, I just never see the point in getting all hyped up on the recruiting, because in the end it never works out like you think.
Trust me Walt, I want those 5 star recruits. The LDS QB at LSU who should be at BYU? Yeah I want that kid. I wish we would have talked to him when he wanted to come to BYU. Then he figured his next best thing was to be with an LDS coach, Crowton.
I hope our coaches continue to get better and better and I think you can all see that we are.
I guess what I am saying is that (and I hop Manti all the best, this is purely hypothetical) for every Manti Te’o who comes out and blows people away in college there is a Manti who goes to college and is very very average.
Basically, these high school guys and their stats and their stars mean absolutely nothing to me. I want to see what they do at the college level. I probably have a chip on my shoulder because all the guys in my area were recruited way more than me, but you know what, I am the only one (with the exception of Brandon Chiller, GB Packers) that ever amounted to anything in college.
Hate to show my ignorance, but..
What’s the story behind the picture?
I guess I don’t really spend too much time following recruiting, either…
Markell,
I find these stats amazing.
It it similar at other schools?
Is it similar in the NFL? How many draftees actually end up seeing the field?
Kiyoshige,
The kid’s name is Kevin Hart, and he lied to everyone at his high school and town when he said that he had received offers from Cal, Oregon, and several other schools. His high school set up a big press conference for him to announce his choice, but afterwards it came out that it was all a lie.
Here’s the ESPN “Outside the Lines” report on it.
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=3881497
I just thought it was hilarious that he was able to play this off on so many people — it kind of illustrates how ridiculous recruiting can get.
Trace: Yeah, I referred to Wilkerson as a high school DB/LB. If you were not aware of the fact “50-50″ was not a WR in high school I am not responsible for your ignorance.
I was sure I remembered that correctly and it was confirmed by a 2 minute google search to numerous references, including a June 19, 1997, Deseret News article on RW titled “BYU Gives Runner/Linebacker a second look.” : “suddenly, a 6 foot2, linebacker who could win a state sprint title. . .”
From another article with a quote from Crowton: ” he never played wr in high school–he was a linebacker. He’s learning the position.”
I have followewd recruting VERY closely for decades. RW was recruited as a saftey–played linebacker in high school (I think maybe Orem but don’t care enough to check further). RW was switched to offense when he came back from a mission in 2001.
And no, I am not related and don’t know him. The team, after 2001 and the departure of a few great players like Staley and Doman, simply was bereft of much talent–one of the reasons I have never heaped all the blame on Crowton for those bad years. Remember when Toby Christensen was our star WR?
Anyways, yeah–RW was recruited as a DB/LB. You have a problem with the facts?
My understanding on the star system for recruits is, that a 5 star will start and make a impact rightaway as a freshman. 4 star will see significant starting time. 3 star maybe soph or jr before being a starter, and so-on. ok that being said, the 3 and 2 star SA’s will have to wait and learn techniques and systems til their soph. and jr. years before they start. throw in the misson and I think that works ok for BYU. anyway I’m not sure how it works, but BYU has fielded some pretty good teams over the last 30 plus years. Go COUGARS
Don’t mean to high-jack this thread to be about Wilkerson–but BYU’s bio and DNews indicate–as surprising as it will strike many–that RW was a First Team All-state LB for Orem who had sprinter speed. BYU thought he would make a great safety at 6′2. 195 and the ability to hit.
By the way, enjoy your blog. As fart as recruitng, While I really enjoy it, you just have to keep in mind that of all these highy touted players, only a handful out of each class are really going to be key contribtors aas you have shown.
Markell-
I am with and respect you. It is always great to see a walk-on or lower star-rated player outperform a higher rated player. But, you said it best, we need to constantly improving our overall team’s athleticism. So we won’t always get the best LDS SA’s (and coach should not insinuate that these are making the wrong decision) but, Markell, do you think we have a chance of getting good non-LDS SA’s who can live by the Honor Code?
Walt,
I think that Coach Mendenhall and his staff are going about it the best way they know how, in terms of getting the right people at BYU, who can live the way they are supposed to. The football team is no different than the rest of the church/world, there are people with strong values who are not members and there are people who weak values who ARE members.
I don’t really care whether or not we get the best LDS kids. I just want to get the right kids. Guys with great values. I went to a fireside last week where Eric Weddle spoke about his conversion story. He was a guy who already had good values when he was introduced to the church. We need guys like that at BYU, and I think that Coach M and the gang are finding more and more of those kind of guys.
Every year I was at BYU a non-member was baptized on the team. Those guys were guys who understood the values in the honor code and lived them the way they were supposed to. The hardest thing about recruiting at BYU is that you ABSOLUTELY NEED both ingredients, Athletics and Morals, or it is just not going to work out.
Kiyoshige -
I had never heard the story either…since no one answered your question, I googled it. Ouch!
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/football/2008-02-05-nevada-prospect_N.htm
So given your last comment, Staff, are you concerned that BYU seems to be recruiting almost exclusively LDS kids?
I really believe that we need to be recruiting the best possible athletes that live the standards that represent BYU. I think that Bronco has cast a little bit too small of a net to find recruits. He has mentioned that the BYU recruiting pool starts with only about 35 guys in any year. Basically we are only considering LDS kids and a few non-lds who may have some ties to BYU. IMO, that is a huge mistake. There are lots of good people out there that are capable of living the HC. Bringing them to BYU would expose them to the LDS church more and improve our football team.
Also, I don’t know what your criteria is for your success numbers but my percentages for those classes are way higher, based on what I know of those players. Personally, if a guy is a two star player and ends up contributing on ST and being in the rotation for at least a couple of years then that is definitely a success.
Matt,
1) No I am not concerned that BYU is only going after the LDS kids. I think we will continue to get guys like O’Neill Chambers who come from good families and whose parents like the idea of BYU’s HC. I just hope that we don’t have anymore screw ups. It just hurts the program and the church when guys get dismissed for doing stupid things. I think the coaches know it is a waste of time to recruit guys that won’t make it here “off the field.” That is why the recruiting pool is so selective.
2) My criteria for success is this. I went down the list and I asked myself three basic questions: Did this player work hard and progress throughout his time at BYU? Did this player perform on the field better than the next guy, or could anyone fill his role? After watching the player go through the program, would I personally re-recruit him if I could go back in time?
There are guys on the list who did play and contribute well on ST, but were they guys that you said, WOW, he is a player, it’s too bad so-and-so is in front of him or he would get a lot more time.
I had the opportunity to get a closer look at the guys on the lists and I basically went with what guys would I want on my team.
Matt C,
PS…I was also a little harder on guys in the fact that I did not just use playing time as a measuring stick. If the only reason they were playing was because nobody else was worth a darn, I didn’t give them credit.
I intentionally left who I chose unmarked, but there are guys on the lists that played a lot who were really only 50/50 (no I am not referring to RW) at best, but they are guys I don’t feel Coach M. would recruit again if he could go back in time.
Mattc,
You are saying there are a lot of good athletes out there that are capable of living the honor code. You also want byu to recruit top notch athletes. So we are competing with the pac10 for these players. I am sorry but I just don’t see the appeal of Byu to any non lds player unless byu is there best offer. If I grew up in california and was non lds and being recruited by the pac10 and byu…BYU would not be on my radar. What does byu offer that cal, ucla, oregon doesn’t have other then more rules. Byu has less exposure(see mtn), less respect (see vegas bowl vs 5th place pac10 team), girls that don’t put out etc (see markell or gooch). If I was being recruited by new mexico, unlv, baylor, sacremento state, then byu would look really appealing to me. I didn’t go to the Y so maybe the girls do put out?
Chris
you sure do paint with broad strokes. If a top notch kid is concerned about “…girls that don’t put out etc…” then of course they are not the “top notch” kids BYU is recruiting. BYU wants the kids theat want to be men on and off the field and not fratboys. Your other points are valid-ish insofar as they fall in the realm of the typical bcs vs non-bcs mantra.
It seems to me that Bronco and Co. want a team full of the BYU equivalent of Rudy Ruettigers, not the California prima donnas that want to have their cake and eat it before they have even earned it. The PAC-1 & others can keep on getting those kids.
Just because you wouldn’t choose BYU does not mean no one will stop being such a sour grapes naysayer.
Just because you wouldn’t choose BYU does not mean no one will. Stop being such a sour grapes naysayer.
Will someone please tell me the recruiting story about this kid. I don’t know the story either. I was trying to look for it in the thread but didn’t ever see it, maybe I missed it.
Thanks, Kevin. At least I’m not the ONLY one out of the loop.
Ki
The kid lied and acted like he had scholarship offers, had a press conference with the hats and everything. Truth was no one had offered him he was making the whole thing up.
Kiyo, (I posted this for you a couple days ago)
Quinn picked that picture so I had to look up what it was all about to…
The kid staged a big recruiting media day where he was going to choose a school. This was big time, TV stations, the whole school watching, etc. He chose Cal, but Cal and Oregon were not recruiting him…nobody was recruiting him at all! He staged the whole thing in hopes that by making himself look big time, other schools would come calling.
The article I read blamed the way we treat young recruits these days. I kept asking myself “How did his coach (the guy holding the mic) not know about the hoax? Or was he in on it. Either way, that guy is not someone I want my kid to play for.
I guess the police were also trying to find out if he had broken and laws by what he had done.
Here are two links with differing opinions
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7OC0YbG2fek/R6hTgqUzsnI/AAAAAAAAE6E/yU1ddwrj_Uc/s400/KevinHart.jpg&imgrefurl=http://thewizardofodds.blogspot.com/2008/02/did-somebody-impersonate-tedford.html&usg=__FaW8VnohwD2nsvV0xqzCTPSaJRs=&h=259&w=400&sz=31&hl=en&start=3&tbnid=ju91yUWFEuKtQM:&tbnh=80&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkevin%2Bhart%2Bfernly%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://sportswrap.berecruited.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/hart.jpg&imgrefurl=http://sportswrap.berecruited.com/%3Fp%3D3229%26akst_action%3Dshare-this&usg=__JInG4vfYneplr6CNwcLaOo1thW4=&h=311&w=496&sz=129&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=xMc2vKEEFfBHjM:&tbnh=82&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkevin%2Bhart%2Bfernly%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
Here’s the “Outside the Lines” report on the story behind the picture…his name is Kevin Hart.
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=3881497
Quinn (not gooch) My point isn’t to be sour grapes, just the opposite, its to support byu’s current model of going after lds kids. I think bronco is on track and I like the direction he is headed. It just seems to me people want byu to get the same kids as cal or even the U when that is not what byu is. Bronco is winning with his kids so lets not criticize every little move he makes. If you think I am wrong about byu give me some good examples of why non lds kids would want to come to byu instead of just throwing me under the bus.
Charles,
The percentage in the NFL has got to be much higher for a couple reasons. I could not find and stats without going through hundreds of draft picks, which I don’t get paid enough to do
Anyway, reason 1. NFL teams don’t have graduating seniors, and they can sign guys form other teams too. That means that they are WAAAAYYY more selective with what rookies they sign. They can’t gamble with guys who “might develop.” They only have 53 spots, and they need NOW results, not “when he’s a junior/sneior.”
Reason 2. When you sign a guy in the first 2 rounds, he is going to see the field. You have committed millions of dollars to him in signing bonuses, so you better believe coaches will see how that car handles. Later round guys are not so garunteed. BUt most likely they will at least get a scout team spot. Remember, there is someone’s butt on the line if that guy doesn’t pan out, so that person will give the player every benefit of the doubt.
Long story short. I bet NFL draft picks is more like 85-90%
Interstingly enough, agents and other people who don’t know crap about football are the ones who select who goes to the Combine every year…Probably only 20-30% of COmbine guys (the ones who are too good for Pro-Day, the Elite, Must see guys) make it to the NFL.
NFL PERCENTAGE:
This one’s for you Charles,
I gave myself a headache this morning trying to get more info on this. Every team in the NFL has sucha different website, that it si hard to figure out what players were drafted by that team, or what year they were drafted. For example I came across one guy who was a “drafted rookie” but really he had been in the NFL for 4 years, just hadn’t made an active roster until this year.
Anyway I looked at just a few teams and basically 85-100% of draft picks make the team. That means that 85% of draft picks play, becuase if you are on an NFL roster and you are not a Qb, you are at least on one ST
Markell,
How about other college programs? Any idea?
Charles,
I am sorry man, that is going to take even more research, and since this is not my job, I can not afford to spend the time. Sorry. Besides I can only tell success at BYU because of knowing the players. If I looked at another school all I would be able to go off would be stats, which don’t always tell the whole story.
Staff, obviously you know the situation more than I do with these players so I will trust you on your measure of success in recruiting. And although you did not list who you think are successes, it seems that there are some that I would consider successes that based on your comments you would disagree.
My point with the recruiting of only LDS kids is this. Of course none of us as BYU supporters want any more HS incidents. But messing up and violating the HC is not only a non-LDS thing. I just think that there are a lot more Curtis Brown, Michael Reed, Brandon Howard and Oneill Chambers types out there. I just don’t want to have to rely on their HS coach being a former BYU Cougar for them to get looked at. I think that we should search high and low for great athletes and then do our due diligence to make sure they are capable of living the HC.
Essentially I am saying that we should expand the net in our initial recruiting pool.
MattC,
Give me your list of successful players from the years you would have a higher percentage and I will tell you why I didn’t choose some of the players on your list.
Great discussion. If I might add my opinion on a few points:
1. There are athletes out there, despite what the media may tell you, who are phenomenal at what they do, and are also interested in more than getting girls, getting perks for college attendance (i.e. money, cars from boosters), and getting drunk. I had lots of friends growing up in Virginia who weren’t LDS, and still managed to have high morals (and they didn’t have the church as a back up when in tempting situations). Mormons by no means have cornered the market on being good kids. So I agree with Markell that there are excellent athletes out there to be found who will fit with the BYU culture despite their non-LDS status. And fortunately, there are ALOT of BYU students who will want to be their friends just to be their friends, not just to convert them.
2. There are a lot of parents who recognize that their children will fluorish in an environment that encourages the type of situation that the HC tries to endorse. When I went to BYU, a few of my non-LDS friends were Muslim, and they specifically pointed out that their parents wanted them to come to BYU because of the traditional values espoused there. So I think that it’s possible that there will be non-LDS athletes whose parents will encourage them to pursue training/education at BYU despite not being Mormon.
3. In the 70s and 80s, Lavell could get away with allowing some degree of “freewheeling” by some of the non-LDS (and LDS) athletes because there wasn’t the constant scrutiny by the media. Things could be more easily overlooked. Who remembers regular discussions about the Honor Code during the BYU SMU Holiday Bowl? Bronco has established this vision of the program most likely because it’s what the administration wanted (hence the reason they hired an untested head coach), and because his vision minimizes that media exposure. It can only have a detrimental effect on a program’s performance, and consequentally their recruiting.
4. There were some folks who were hard on athletes who “got homesick” or never played a down and got to keep scholarships. First of all, if you’ve never been homesick, that’s awesome for you. I grew up on the east coast, had been to the Rocky Mountains once in my life before attending BYU, and in retrospet, I’d say I was pretty homesick initially. Now add in being a minority in Provo, either in race or religious persuasion, and you’re at least initially not dealing with a large pool of people you’re accustomed to interacting with. I can completely understand guys being homesick, struggling with going from being the high school superstar to just another one of 50+ great athletes. I’d give those guys a bit of a break, and be surprised there haven’t been more (not to mention those who were coddled academically in high school, and really weren’t given an education because someone thought it was a good idea to just let them slip by, and then when required to perform demanding college work, they were really struggling).
And as far as the scholarships, well, that’s an investment the university makes, and it’s payment for potential services rendered. To pull the rug out just because a guy doesn’t end up fitting in is undeserved. The university takes a risk, and they accept the consequences. Some guys will make it as productive players, and others won’t. I just hope alot of those athletes recognize what a great opportunity they have to get a college degree, and their cost is to play a phenomenal game! I remember one player at BYU who was in a couple of classes with me. He blew off a lot of his schoolwork because he thought he was going to make it as a free safety in the NFL. I knew that, although talented, he wasn’t going to make it, and tried to impress upon him the opportunity he had to get a college degree (he would have been the first in his family). He just never caught on to the idea. We need to develop athletes who recognize that most of them won’t play on Sundays, but still love the game enough to recognize what they’re getting out of it.
All very good points Darkbull.
Getting a handful of non lds athletes every year doesn’t seem to be enough to a lot of fans who want 4 and 5 star non lds athletes. Athletes who make a difference. Yes the star system is totally objective but when has byu ever gotten a 4-5 star non lds player? When has byu fought off ucla, or oregon for a non lds athlete. Chambers may be the exception but his coach was from byu. The last highly touted instate non lds player I remember is dan coates but what was his other choice go to utah and block all game. Non lds utah athletes are familiar with the culture and expections at byu yet we don’t seem to get many of them.
I am from Utah so I grew up watching utah and byu play football every saturday. If I was being recruited by some big schools and Boston college came calling and said we want you but 99% of the students are strict catholics. You will be a minority and you must take classes on catholicism attend mass etc etc. It would be very hard for me to go that far from home, want to be a minority, abide by more rules/regulations then other schools. I am assuming every high school football player has a favorite school. It is usually based in a regional affiliation. In some cases a national powerhouse is followed as they are on tv every week. I am generalizing obviously there are exceptions. So if the majority of stud athletes are in california, texas and florida we have to go in to the other schools backyards and pull these kids away from the schools they grew up watching. Or we have to take kids who are not being recruited by the big schools. Byu is most definately a better football school then new mexico, sdsu, unlv etc. Byu can not go after the kids with bad grades like another school we all know so fondly.
I do believe there are non lds kids out there that would come to byu but I think the coaches and the school only have so many resources. They can only recruit so much they can only fly around so much. Do you want to use your limited resources on long shots or focus on more of a sure thing? I remember when bronco took over it was reported that he had a discussion with lavell about wether he could win with only lds kids. Since that is the direction the program has headed they must think it is possible and so far the results are pretty positive. Even the schools with the so called athletes have down years on offense and defense. Have weaknesses at positions from year to year. Thats the beauty of college football that a new season brings new hope for excellence.
Alright Staff here is my list:
2006:
Tom Sorensen – contibuted significantly in 2007 while rotating in at numerous positions along the OL including C and OG. He gave up football after struggling with injuries last year in 2008. He was also Freshman ALL-SEC at Vanderbilt before his mission and started every game at Center. To me that is a successful two star recruit.
2005:
Spencer Hafoka – returned punts and was the number 4 receiver on the team as a true freshman. Definitely too soon to call him a non-success.
Stephen Covey – led the Scout team as QB and seems to have a bright future. While he hasn’t done anything on the field, definitely too soon to call him a non-success.
2004:
Grant Nelsen – has contributed quite a bit on special teams and may be in the mix for the LB rotation this year. Again, I wouldn’t call him an unsuccessful recruit because I am not sure that coaches expected more out of him.
Nick Alletto – Should be in the mix this year at the RT position. Again too early to call him a non-successful recruit.
2003:
Williams, Soi, Mohetau and Attig would be my only non-successful recruits for that year.
Jason Speredon – has suffered a lot of injuries but still should be in the mix for playing time this year along the OL.
Dan Van Sweden – ST player who lives up to his recruiting status.
2002:
Admittedly a lot of busts in this class. However, I would consider 12 of the 24 to be successful. James Allen and Rey Brathwaite are successes for me despite being HC casulties because they contributed a lot on the field. 10 more all seemed to be starters at the least with a lot of stars in this group.
2001:
Seems like 10 or 11 from your comments but many were JC guys and I was on my mission for the 2001 and 2002 seasons so I can’t really comment.
2000:
Retention seemed to be the issue as a number of these guys ended up transfering and staring at other schools such as Ah You, Marquart, Hill and Stratton. Also some injury casualties like Theler (fractured vertabrae), Bills, and Cowan. However, I agree with your number of 7 successful here.
I guess my point is that there are some guys that you recruit that you don’t or shouldn’t ever expect to be stars or even starters. Obviously you can’t have 25 new starters every year. However, to me getting guys who contribute on ST and get some reps at least as upperclassmen with your 15th through 25th recruit in every class would be pretty good. To me that is a success.
Matt, good points, I’d like to add, the way BYU recruites a sucess should be counted by how many players make it to there senior year, graduate, and also perform to there expectations. ie; all QBs that are signed I don’t believe the staff thinks they will start in the next 4 years at QB, will they be a back up or play at another position? in the mix TEs,LBs,DBs, and recievers they may fill them where they’re needed. and from 17 to 25 many kids develop rapidly in skill and size. Add a missiom and you’ve got the maturity and better ability to priortize. Thats only from observation I have no level of religous experience, but have had season tickets at the Y since 64 when they opened the stadium. Anyway, as Ive said before BYU is recruiting kids that will fit, and a couple of risky kids with alot of possibility. I believe that they are slowly getting more talent and speed. If BYU can be consistant, win several conf. titles and put together a couple of undefeted seasons, the 4 and 5 star lds kids will follow. Hey, I love everyones comments and knowege on the game. Cause I just think I know what I’m talking about, and would appreaciate if you would just let me keep thinking that, thanks
Sorry about the lowercase LDS in the above coment no insult intended, I have alot of respect for the LDS church
MattC,
I am a former employee of the BYU athletic department and I would back up and support the findings and judgements of Markell. Although I cannot speak to the recruiting classes prior to 2004 (since I started at the Y in the Fall of 04) I do know the majority of the players that Markell named and for the most part I would say he is spot on. Not only do I know how they contributed on the field (or lack thereof) but I also know of their successes or shortcomings academically.
Markell I’m glad you included your criteria for success and how you evaluated these players and I think it is a fair assessment. Having never been a head coach of a college football program I would imagine the 3 questions Markell used in his criteria for success are some of the same questions that head coaches are asking themselves in retrospect on the athletes moving on from their program (i.e. Did this player perform better on the field than the next guy or could I find anyone to fill his role?). Answering yes or no to this question will help the coaches of a program continue to improve their recruiting and the type of player(s) they are looking to have as part of their program.
MattC, not that you’re not entitled to your opinion, because you certainly are, but Markell has a great “beat” on the recent happenings of the BYU football program.
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