Turnovers….Please stop!
2 October 2009
Quinn Gooch
29 Comments
I understand that this week our teams colors are similar, but please stop throwing the ball to the opponent. I am at a loss. Is it because he doesn’t have that #1 receiver. Or is it simply that receivers aren’t creating enough separation, leaving Max with tiny throwing lanes.
The only bright spot is BYU hasn’t turned the ball over more than West Virginia.
If I’m not mistaken, Max leads the nation in INT and he has also thrown more interceptions every year. His sophmore year he had 12, and this year he already has 10. Looks like he is digressing. I have a hard time understanding how Riley Nelson couldn’t do just as good of a job.
My biggest peeve with the game tonight is the secondary – blah blah blah problems I know, BUT HOW ON EARTH DO YOU PLAY WITH 12 YARD CUSHIONS on 3rd and 2 ON FOURTH AND 1???????????? I mean cmon, really? Have we not heard of bumping the receivers? Are we that physically overmatched? Someone explain it to me.
I was at the game, so I only got the one replay on the video screen (and that usually is so far zoomed in that you can’t see anything), but the interceptions didn’t seem to be Max’s fault entirely.
On the long ball He stared down his receiver, and didn’t look off the safety… but when has he ever done that? The safety did come over though, and made a pretty incredible catch. It seemed to be thrown to a spot where a safety from Utah State shouldn’t be able to catch it.
The other one seemed like a good play on the ball as well. I think the one thing that I see Max not doing that might help (and what the crap do I know?) is go through his progressions better, and look off the defenders. He seems to be telegraphing his throws.
My big worry is that if FSU can get three picks and two fumbles, USU can get two picks and a fumble, how many turnovers are TCU and Utah going to cause?
Riley Nelson has looked really good from what little he’s played, and to me that makes next year look more like another good year rather than a building year.
I agree with you Willus. Those picks were pretty good plays by their D. I haven’t given up on Maximus, he is still the man. With or without the picks.
I think Hall tries to do too much. In the third quarter he was trying really hard to put the Aggies away. He kept looking for a back breaker of a play rather than focus on remaining patient. I don’t even know if this is a fixable problem. All athletes who have substantial ability have a desire to try for perfection and carry the team. Maybe it is an effort in hoops to thread the needle for the assist or hit the back breaking shot in transition. Maybe it is the desire to overpower the hitter in baseball or really put your bat on a ball and pull it over the fence. In all of these cases, the players try and do too much instead of letting the game come to them. Hall has always had this problem and it won’t go away. Look at Brett Favre, he still has this problem…so did Jordan.
Gooch/ Criddle,
What is your assessment of Scott Johnson’s play the past two games? I think that I am being a little too critical of his play, and would like an experienced analysis.
I didn’t seem to see him playing ‘downhill’ much… was that due play calls from the sideline, or his decision making? It was hard to digest the big third down conversion pass plays during the game last night.
So what is your take? What will the status be with that position in the coming years with Johnson being a senior; and success from that position coming in years that there is a senior?
Your analysis is extremely welcome… the only place to look for good synopsis.
++
The first pick I didn’t have a huge problem with, I think it was just matter of not putting enough mustard on the pass. If the ball gets a few split seconds earlier, it’s a TD. The 2nd INT however made no sense to me. It was not a 3rd down play if I recall and he just chucked it deep where the intended receiver was nowhere near open. They had a good drive going and there was no need to take a chance downfield but I’m chalking that one up to a miscommunication.
During the prior two seasons a lot was said about Hall spending a lot of time outside of practice throwing to Collie and others to the point where he developed a great sense of timing with Collie in particular. I haven’t seen any mention this year about Hall spending extra time with receivers. There have been a number of interceptions this year where it looked like the timing was off a bit. On the 2nd interception against the Aggies it seemed like he expected the receiver to be a few steps quicker and put the ball where Collie or even Jacobson would have been if they had been the target.
I also agree with Casey’s comment. Hall reminds me a lot of Favre at times. Tough as nails competitor but forces a lot of balls.
Quinn, Ben or Staff – do you know if Hall has spent that extra time with receivers this year? If not, do you think it could be part of the problem.
I have to disagree that the picks were not Max’s fault. I stood up for him last week when they were not his fault but there are a couple things to understand about the plays on Friday night.
The first pick was not quit as incredible as you may think. Sure the safety was fast but it looked like they were playing a disguise cover three…meaning they were trying to make the Offense think that they were playing something different and then on the snap they move to cover 3. Right from the snap the safety was running that way and he never stopped. That is the QBs fault for not recognizing the rolling safeties and corners.
The second pick was just a flat out bad decision. The rule of thumb for the deep ball is “I’m even, I’m leavin” meaning that if your receiver is running even with the defender you throw it up because he will run get it. On that play the safety was over the top of that right but two steps right from the get go. Ashworth was never in a position to get deep and that’s when you apply the saying, “Touchdown to check down.”
Bad decisions usually end up with bad results
I was at the game, and had the same thoughts as Markell. The second pick was much, much worse than the first. The first one he just didn’t see the safety there. He was really well hidden and just came over and made a nice catch.
The second INT was just really, really bad. Double coverage. Our guy was never open at any point of the play.
I really thought we should’ve kept it on the ground more, or just gone for shorter route passes. The middle looked pretty open to me, and I thought we could’ve used Pitta more on short crossing routes.
Either way, it’s hard to complain too much about a 35-17 victory. Their last TD was garbage time, so it really was a pretty good beat down.
I wanted to give a shoutout to the Cougar D. I thought they were outstanding Friday night. Great, great, effort, and I hope they can keep that up.
Ben H.,
I have to disagree. I can complain about a 35-17 win. Those two interceptions will be game killers against TCU. If you are worried about Hall pushing things in a game against USU, just think about what he will do when we start getting beat by TCU or UofU. I have a lot to be worried about. That first INT was made because he underthrew the receiver and put it inside, right where the safety was coming across from. Had he put it over Ashworth’s outside shoulder, the safety would have had to go through Ashworth to get to it. At worst, it would have been an incomplete pass.
On the second INT… just crazy stupid decision making. It wasn’t just double coverage, it was tight double coverage and there was no need to push it. I can understand taking a shot deep, but part of that learning process is knowing when to look deep, see it’s not there, and get rid of it, run with it, or check down to a RB.
I was very pleased with the D-line play. They pushed back the USU line, held their gaps well, and most importantly, limited the rushing of Borel and Turbin. I was worried about that, but they played disciplined defense. Hats off to them. I have to admit that I wasn’t overwhelmed by what I saw of Buckner. He made a few tackles because he seemed to not be aggressive to the ball, and gave such a cushion to the receiver that they made an easy catch. I don’t like to see CBs with a lot of tackles in their stats (unless they’re sacks), because that means that receivers are catching balls or RBs are getting past the line.
A great mix-up of RB play. We’ve got at least 4 guys who can give a lot of looks, Tonga with some power (did you see some of his blocks!!! He should be playing on Sundays next year) and catching out of the back field, Unga with… Unga, Kariya with some good north-south strong running, and DiLuigi (thank goodness he’s worked on keeping hold of the ball) with some nifty quickness and moves.
Finally, Pitta is unearthly. That diving catch at the 2 was phenomenal. He is a really good TE.
I’m glad, but scared about Max’s inability to recognize the need to stop pushing so hard. It will hurt us against TCU, AFA and UofU. I think that if he doesn’t make some changes, at least one and probably 2 of those will be losses.
BALL SECURITY!!! No more excuses.
With the way our backs were running. Max didn’t need to throw it at all.
We weren’t even in panic mode, but Max was throwing it like we were. I don’t know if those are his calls or Anae. Sometimes taking what they’re giving is the way to go.
Whether it was Max or Anae we have no patience. Our offense was clicking. there was no need to go long. We talk alot about trust. I don’t think Max can be trusted. When he goes long without need he let’s his team mates down. I don’t think he is to big to sit and think about it for a series.
side note: Austin Collie made a great catch for his first touchdown in his NFL career! He really couldn’t have planned for a better situation with Peyton Manning and Gonzo injury.
I think Max may be a little over confident and trying to force the big play. Its evident when our team falls behind, Max unfortunately falls apart. I felt although Max was confident as a Sophomore, he was more timid in making those dangerous throws. Stick to the system Max! Be patient! The D is playing well (minus the FSU game).
Let’s not have any more talk of Riley Nelson taking over. Max is still by far the best we’ve got at this point. Nelson has great potential for next year.
I can only hope Max will have more sense on those long balls against better opponents. Was that second one really double coverage, though? I thought it was single and the guy was just on Ashworth really tight. At any rate, before Max became the guy they always said he was a gunslinger who would take chances. They were definitely right. He’s got to get it under control or it will be his Achilles heel this year.
Agreed, quit the talk of Riley Nelson. We should start a discussion board about all the amazing throws and decisions Max has made this year. Tearing down your #1 qb and captain is the worst thing that could happen for the remainder of the season! Max is still an excellent quarterback and our best chance at finishing this season with conference championship. Go Max Hall and go Cougars!
Yes, officially, Hall leads the country in interceptions: http://espn.go.com/college-football/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/interceptions
I admit I’m not the most knowledgeable football fan, but I don’t really get the hue and cry. No one is perfect. I saw Peyton Manning had an INT yesterday, and he played a brilliant game. I think everyone focusing on it, and asking Max endless questions about it, would tend to make things worse. It kind of reminds me when my son was young and played baseball. In one game he hit two home runs and struck out once. The coach went on and on to him about what he did wrong on the strike out at bat. It mystified me. But what do I know?
Hall leads in interceptions but he’s among the top in TD passes and yardage. He’d probably have more TD’s but a lot of our TD’s lately have been rushing ones from our RB’s. INT’s never look good but it comes with the territory when you have a QB that throws the ball as much as Hall does. If you want to see a high INT count, just look at Detmer’s stats the year he won the Heisman.
I agree with everything that Orem Cougar Fan and Seasider said. Yes, Max has forced the ball too much, but he also makes incredible passes that show the skill and confidence that he has. The only game that I have been upset at Max about was Utah last year. In that game he made the mistake of trying to do it all himself. In comparing him to past BYU greats I think that he belongs in their ranks. He has still led us to 2 10-win seasons, a conference championship, and, despite their loss this weekend, a win over OK. How many teams would be grateful for such a quarterback. That being said, it’s unfortunate, but Max will only cement his legacy with a win over Utah and a conference championship. If he does that then I don’t think people will remember his interceptions. Few people remember how often Detmer, or even John Beck, sometimes forced balls. I still am a fan of all three.
Win the turnover battle, win the game.
If you want one statistic that will most likely predict the outcome of a game, skip total yards and first downs, rushing average and time of possession. Go right to giveaways and takeaways, or interceptions and lost fumbles.
This is not just an over-simplification cited every Saturday/Sunday in post-game comments by coaches and players. It is an overwhelming likelihood.
Counting every NFL game in the 2004 and ‘05 seasons, the team that had no turnovers in a game won 77% of the time (451 won, 134 lost).
Conversely, a team that had three or more turnovers only won 21% of the time (172 won, 661 lost).
Number one, the turnover ends the possession for the offense with no chance of scoring there are only 12 possessions in an average game and every time you have a turnover, that means you’ve just lost 8% of your game without getting a score. So now we have to put your scoring in the other 11 possessions.
If you have two giveaways, you have to get your scoring in the other 10 possessions, and so on.
There is another critical result of a turnover. It almost always has a significant change in field position that favors the opponent.
BYU can not continue to consistently turn the ball over and consistently win. You can pull it off against a lesser opponent but as last year taught us once you start playing an equally talented team, turnovers often become the difference maker.
I still think passing to the backs is underutilized, especially on the delayed dump in the flat we used to see so much with Beck hitting Tonga/Brown when the D’d drop 6-7 guys.
The TE is the new safety blanket, and many of the picks are against double+ coverage on those guys.
Sounds like from what people are saying (including Staff who is probably the only person on here who has any clue what he is talking about) that many of Max’s INTs are because he is making poor reads. He is not necessarily forcing the ball, thinking “Man, this pass is near impossible, but hey I can do it!” but rather is just not making a good read on the D or correctly assessing the situation. That INT into double coverage was a forced throw. Seemed really bad. But the first pick seems more like a lack of recognition of the defensive scheme. Either way, Max is still the man, he has made some great throws, and I hope he puts this behind him. I seriously doubt Riley could play as well as Max, considering Max’s experience, confidence, and especially the leadership and chemistry he has with the other starters.
It seems to me that Max relies a bit too much on his pre-snap read. The desire to disguise coverages is universal because of the tendency to have your brain shut down while you are in the middle of a play. I think Hall is susceptible to this sort of thing. It is what teams try to do to stop our offense and those that have done it successfully have stopped our offense. Of course, most teams try to disguise coverages and we burn them so I guess it is a problem to work on but not a problem to freak out about.
The throwing of interceptions is an almost completely mental factor for Max and other proven QB’s. To think that berating an athlete, especially a proven one, is going to create positive change is a fools perspective.
If Max was not a key factor in the wins this season and someone on the sidelines could easily replace and better his success, then the discontent would be justified; but the reality is that Max would be a major success on almost any other division I football team in the nation. Max is a proven “known quantity” success as BYU’s quarterback. To get riled up and lambaste Max shows an ignorance for understanding the position and shortsighted view of the games past and season ahead.
Encouragement over ridicule is key and the only way improvement is going to be seen at this point the season. The negative tone and energy portrayed last season was only a disruption to the improvements that needed to be made. No matter how strong or weak a players psyche is perceived having thousands of arm chair quarterbacks exude negativity towards a specific player is only going to compound the problem.
We could all use a dose of the 5th habit of highly effective people when analyzing Max and “Seek First to Understand, Then to be Understood”.
I’m sure the coaches will make the best decision in regards to this.
I’m guessing that Nelson, although being a great QB as well, is not as familiar with BYU style of play, whereas Max should be.
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